TF2CSA Cup v2 Custom Maps Info

Only weapons which should be banned are the Sandman and Wrangler (maybe Dead Ringer too) since they are OP, restricting further than that severely limits our limited community imo.

Also I’d like to propose a new gameplay rule, due to whatever reasons a team needs to pause during a match (dropped player whatnot), that team needs to give at least 5 seconds warning to the opposition that the interruption will take place.

“Pausing” …. wait 5 secs *paused*

This will allow both teams to stand back a safe distance and potentially not find yourself mid-air above 2 soldiers who now have time to plan, warn teammates and counter more effectively.

In my opinion we should decide on the ruleset we use by getting input from all the teams, and making decisions based on a majority opinion, rather than following overseas rules exactly, although I agree it’s a good starting point and guideline.

Also, I really feel that by having two “divisions” for this comp we are really limiting ourselves. I think that the “Beta group” teams would benefit a lot more by playing against the mid-high tier teams, as this is the best way to gain experience, learn new things and overall improve as a team, and if all the teams played each other there would still be the more even matches happening between the lower tier teams.

Teams like Fury and Cмерть have improved drastically since the last 6v6 comp and, in my opinion, by separating them from the mid-high tier teams we are hampering further improvement. There are no prizes or anything at stake, and even if there were I think our biggest focus should be improving the overall skill level of the community and helping the newer and lower tier teams improve. I really feel that by having these two separate “”divisions” we are actually going backwards.

In any case, that is my opinion and I’m only trying to give constructive feedback. If there are other reasons for this that I’m not aware of, then that’s fine, but I think it should really be considered dropping the 2 divisions idea.

I think the Natasha is purely overpowered often a heavy can stand back and shoot towards the combo, if one bullet touches the medic he is severly impaired and can not use his main advantage, movement speed and agility, countless times has the Natasha caused people to rage in pickups and clannies.

As for the Gunboats i think they are a part of our community, almost every roaming soldier uses them. They help a lot with healing being able to heal demo, pocket, scouts then lastly roaming.

I think the captains should have a chat and decide.

I wanna play Spy!

You already play Spy for the Chinese government, homo!

First off, great thanks to the TF2CSA team for organising this league, and for all the teams that will be participating.

As for the rules regarding unlocks, I personally don’t think it’s going to make a big impact either way, whether we follow ETF2L’s rule-set or not, but I do believe I can give some very sound and unbiased reasoning as to why they should remain banned.

First off: I was planning to start practising with the FaN, to utilise it on maps like cp_gravelpit, where the push-back can be taken advantage of.
After I found out it was banned in ETF2L, I took it with a pinch of salt, and realised that there was actually good reasoning for it being banned, and accepted it and moved on.

However, it seems that others are taking it the wrong way, believing that it is simply hindering any form of diversity in competitive tf2. I’d like to address this.

First off: let’s look at an unlock like the Kritzkrieg, the most widely alternatively used unlock in TF2 with it’s default counterpart the Medigun.

The Kritzkrieg forces the entire team to adapt to its usage. Inevitably, so does it force the enemy team to do so. However, it does so at the cost of the Medigun’s invulnerability. A fair exchange, many would agree. This creates an interesting dynamic where a team can choose between either strategy at any given stage and counter, or be countered by the enemy team depending on which reacts and adapts faster.

This is why the Kritzkrieg is a perfectly balanced and widely used unlock.

Now let’s look at the FaN and Direct Hit. They both have one thing in common. They’re both personal preferences. They do not in any way change the dynamic of your team’s strategy. They merely affect you, in the way that you choose to play the class. They do however, affect another aspect of the game.

They affect your opponents. They affect the way they have to play against you, as a single player, just for using a different primary weapon.

Soldiers and Demomen have to steer clear of rocket- or sticky-jumping near a FaN-ing scout, else their entire jump is nullified. Medics have to be extra-ready to use their uber, because if they get hit just once, it’s impossible for them to dodge. Similar scenario for scouts.

As for the Direct Hit, scouts have to keep their distance, otherwise it is almost impossible to dodge one of the rockets, which will deal well over 125 damage, instantly killing them if they are not buffed by the medic. The fact that one direct hit, without the mini-crit, can kill a full-hp scout, at MEDIUM range, is already ridiculous. Coupled with the insane speed of the projectile, it means it nerfs the scout’s ability to do anything but steer clear of a Direct Hit soldier. So poor scouts, right? Wrong. Medics are reduced to ashes if they dare try to jump for a medium-range dodge, forcing them to make use of ground footwork when a Direct Hit soldier is near. What about SJ or RJ’s from fellow Demomen and Soldiers? Mid-airs are the easiest shots with the direct hit, and also deal mini-crits. On top of that, and this is a little something people forget about this game; the more damage you deal, the further your opponent is “pushed” or blasted away, similar to quake’s mechanic. This means it just takes one shot to completely screw up any soldier or demoman’s jump due to the insane amount of damage a minicrit DR shot deals. This forces soldiers and demomen to stay on the ground, and spam from a distance, where it’s relatively easy to dodge the superior projectile speed of the Direct Hit.

“QQ less and learn to adapt. You’re the best players in this country, should be easy, right?” you might say. Fair enough, but here’s what I say.

This is what your team suffers if you choose to use the FaN: One scout with a 2-shot clip size as opposed to 6.

This is what your team suffers if you choose to use the Direct Hit: one soldier with less splash from their rockets.

I don’t know about you, but if I compare the last two “disadvantages” with the amount of “adapting” the opposing team needs to do in order to counter it, I come up with this simple statement:

The entire opposing team needs to adapt to bogus circumstances for the sake of a single player’s personal preference, with little or no affect whatsoever to that said player’s team.

This is why these unlocks have been banned, and this is why I’m not complaining about the FaN being banned, because it is simply fair.

I’m actually surprised the Bonk! Energy Drink, Jarate and Dead Ringer hasn’t been banned as well; I feel the same dilemma exists with those unlocks. However, they are clearly more balanced than the FaN or Direct Hit.

Anyways,

tl;dr These unlocks have been banned with good reason, compared to these “boohoo, you just want to kill our fun.” complaints.

You put up a good argument Joint but I feel you are missing one of the most vital points in regards to this, skill.

The vibes I constantly get from people in this on-going debate is that anyone can pick up a FaN or DH and wreak havoc on the battleground but this could not be further from the truth.

Let’s take a FaN scout for example, sure he has the ability to reach higher platforms which otherwise would be impossible for a Scatter Scout, kill an unbuffed Heavy in two shots or has the ability to throw a jumper off their planned course, but this comes at a much higher price than just two rounds in the weapon. If that scout is not able to kill his opponent with those two rounds or push him away far enough for the FaN Scout to get safe distance between them, he will almost certainly die to an equally skilled player almost all of the time.

The exact same can be said of a DH Soldier. If that soldier is not able to shoot his opponent with almost pin-point accuracy, he doesn’t stand a chance and as a direct (harhar) result is a burden to their team.

I could go on about the Crit-A-Cola, Natascha, Gun-Boats and probably a kak load of others too but the point I’m trying to make is these players are now forced to use weapons which otherwise would not be their weapons of choice, because of their skill in using said weapon they are now handicapped as well as their team.

Are we not trying to raise the bar with regards to skill? There are always numerous counters and strategies the opponent teams can devise to overcome these “imbalances” yet people still debate the topic around the fact that both teams absolutely will use the bread & butter team setup of characters.

TL;DR
People want these weapons banned because they’re afraid of them being used against them. Those who have developed exceptional skill with these weapons are to suffer, and at what expense? So the opposition have less situational variables to account for?

You guys should become politicians or something. Great debate. 😀
This is something I would watch on TV.

Challenge accepted, I welcome any constructive input openly with both arms :>

On another note though I’d like people to consider the following;

While I agree that a team facing against a DH or FaN user will have to somewhat change the way they engage in combat, I don’t believe it is so drastic and game-changing that people can’t adapt in time.

As a Scout I would personally rather go up against a DH and FaN at the same time than two Heavies. I’m sure you can all agree that having two Heavies, no matter which weapons they use, would create a more fundamental difference in gameplay?

Anyway, happy fragging Joint, looking forward to your write-up in the future.

Yes you are.

“1.1.1 Normal Gamemode: 6on6, Medic and Demoman limit 1,Class limit 2”

Disregard experiment.

DH and FaN are boring as hell and making me form bad habits. Here’s the damage list for the weapons for anyone who cares.

FaN: Point-blank – 113.

Completely disables a target if you get a close-range shot, 70+ damage or so.
Very OP against medics. Weak against Soldiers. Weak against scouts with strong movement.

DH: Minimum Damage a direct hit will deal: 59, ground. Long Range: 90+ Medium-range: 111-125. Point-Blank: 135+. Mid-airs: 90 – 180+- depending on range.

A player’s jump doesn’t count as a mini-crit-able shot, thankfully. Somewhat balanced in that regard. Very OP for Mid-airs, due to it’s damage push, and projectile speed and damage output. Weak against multiple targets.

Closing comments: FaN is relatively balanced for 6v6, compared to the scattergun. DH is somewhat suspect for 6v6 play.

In any case, ban or no ban, they’re pretty useless to the team as a whole. I highly recommend not using them should they not be banned, at least for low-mid tier teams. In high tier, it’s going to pretty much be useless.

I think instead of leaving it up to the “captains” or “top teams” or players, leave it up to the low- and mid-tier teams; they’re the ones who will be affected them most by the use of these unlocks.

We are talking about Comp play here. Most of the people in clans have achieved a certain set of skills and they know the basics. It is not an individual gaming field like pubs. In a clan game, especially in a competition or cup, you cannot think of your personal preference or go on a killing spree. Then you must go pub.

My point is Like Joint said earlier. Even though you prefer the FaN, you are possibly putting your team at risk cause you will die. You cannot just play a certain weapon cause you feel like it. You must look at the strats of your team ( Hence the name Team Fortress). I understand that people like the DH cause it is OP and can create a lot of damage, but it has its draw backs. Again not really helping your team in the long run.

On the other side. Most of the unlock weapons are balanced and can be countered. The DH can not really be countered. As a medic you can basically run away or hope your pocket absorb your hits. You can’t strafe jump or run forward, cause if anyone with the DH shoot and even just spam in your way, you are most of the time dead. If a scout takes a shot then he is most probably dead.

At the end of the day overseas rules are adopted because it was tested by them and it works. Why do we want to re-invent the wheel on this…

BTW: These rules have been adopted for this Competition, so lets try it and if someone is still unhappy, take it further.

[This is just a reiteration of my previous posts]

@RaCoon, please read my post about skill and how it affects these weapons, then come back and read your post because it seems you’ve completely missed the points I’ve been trying to make.

Let me further back this up through a statement of yours.

“It is not an individual gaming field like pubs. In a clan game, especially in a competition or cup, you cannot think of your personal preference or go on a killing spree. Then you must go pub.”

Ok, then what about teams who encourage their players to use those weapons as it possibly forms an intricate part of their playstyle? Should the entire team be playing Pubs instead of Comp?

@Joint, saying these weapons suck and are useless and should not be used should they not be banned is a personal opinion (no doubt shared among thousands of players in the world) and only that. I’ve seen an amazing video quite some time ago of a Scout who picked off an entire team with the FaN with almost god-like flanking and timing (probably due to excellent communication from his teammates). These weapons, much like every weapon ingame, are as useless as the players skill with them and nothing more.

PS: I’d never use a FaN in tournament play because I suck hard with it yet I will still defend anyone who chooses to use it as it certainly does not fall under the category of OPness like the Dead Ringer, Wrangler and Sandman, if at all.